Magnum One/Magnum One (Mid-American Digital) (Disc Manufacturing).iso/d27/discus3x.arc/AS4CAP.THD

Text File | 1991-12-04 | 52KB | 662 lines

AS4CAP.THD

AS/400 capacity.

How many interactive users and/or programmers can an AS/400 support? How about
using the 400 as a programmer's station peered to an S/38? Various opinions and
discussions dealing with connectivity, advanced development tools, and capacity.
.
.This is an ASCII file.  READ or DOWNLOAD with any supported protocol.
Upl: Anne E. Pruitt 72335,777

AS/400 IBM S/38 PROGRAMMING CONNECT TOOLS CAPACITY DEVEOPMENT

#: 26196 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    30-Apr-90  21:48:20
Sb: AS/400 Capacity
Fm: Gene Sutton 73077,1132
To: All

I had a client ask me today about the capacity of an AS/400 C10 (16M memory).
I have no experience with AS/400's.  Anyone care to venture an opinion as to
how many medium-weight interactive users are appropriate for such a system ?

#: 26362 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    01-May-90  18:48:14
Sb: #26196-AS/400 Capacity
Fm: Ken Werner 76657,3373
To: Gene Sutton 73077,1132

Gene,

The C10 comes 8 to 20 megs real memory and 640 to 1,280 megs of single level
storage.

A C10 may handle 2 or 3 accounting clerks or it makes a good single programmer
development machine peered to a larger machine.

If security, database/SQL or peer-peer are not a requirement, consider a
multi-user 386 machine.

Ken

#: 26367 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    01-May-90  19:09:18
Sb: #26196-AS/400 Capacity
Fm: Jim Neely 73760,3675
To: Gene Sutton 73077,1132

Gene,

The AS/400 is memory hungry.  The more users, the more memory you need.  I
would guess that a 16MB C10 should handle 4 - 6 users.   Remember that the 10
is the low end of the scale and performance might leave something to be
desired.  I'd ask for a demo at the local branch or VAR and see if the
performance is acceptable.

What are medium weight users to you might be light weight or real heavies in a
particular application.  As in any system, you could bog it down by, for
instance, all users going for the same resource at the same time.

Good luck...jn

#: 26447 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    02-May-90  03:35:12
Sb: #26196-AS/400 Capacity
Fm: Patrick Townsend 73040,2224
To: Gene Sutton 73077,1132

Gene,

Memory is the constraint here, for *most* AS/400 applications. If the
applications are fairly well-behaved and the users are not doing heads down
data entry, you can probably support somewhere between 4 and 6 users.

Good luck,

Patrick

#: 26507 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    02-May-90  13:24:06
Sb: #26362-AS/400 Capacity
Fm: Gene Sutton 73077,1132
To: Ken Werner 76657,3373 (X)

Ken,

Thanks very much.  Your response and Jim Neely's are exactly the kind of info
I was hoping for.

I agree that a 386 provides more bang for the buck but what we're actually
doing is looking at proposals from an OEM.   The OEM has an existing package
that presumably ties him to AS/400's.

Gene

#: 26508 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    02-May-90  13:24:12
Sb: #26367-AS/400 Capacity
Fm: Gene Sutton 73077,1132
To: Jim Neely 73760,3675

Jim,

Thanks very much.  Your response and Ken Werner's are exactly what I needed
and I think give me enough to go on.

An OEM has proposed this C10 to support 10 'clerk-types'.  My experience with
similar users has shown system demand to indeed have its peaks and valleys.

Gene

#: 26785 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    03-May-90  23:39:03
Sb: #26508-AS/400 Capacity
Fm: Stuart M. Mulne 72227,742
To: Gene Sutton 73077,1132

Gene:

Our IBM salesman (and at least two local VARs) have also proposed a "10"
(actually a B10) for a similar arrangement - 9 tubes, four printers, and a
couple of PCs using emulator cars (with printers).

I think they're using a different Ouija board than I do - it seems to be
cutting it too close.

(In our case, about seven of those tubes are heavy interactive data entry,
and one is a programmer - we're not sure what the ninth guy is doing
<grin>.)

Stu.

#: 26856 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    04-May-90  10:05:00
Sb: #26785-#AS/400 Capacity
Fm: Gene Sutton 73077,1132
To: Stuart M. Mulne 72227,742 (X)

Stu,

Thanks.

Gee, you don't suppose these guys are trying to get their hook into the fish,
do you ?

Gene

#: 26858 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    04-May-90  10:17:41
Sb: #26785-AS/400 Capacity
Fm: TERRY TRAVER 72047,25
To: Stuart M. Mulne 72227,742 (X)

Stuart,

You're right -- nine users on a B10 is cutting it too close.  You might get by
with five or six interactive users (assuming you've got big memory), but the
programmer is going to kill the response time with compiles...

Terry

#: 26955 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    04-May-90  21:59:32
Sb: #26785-AS/400 Capacity
Fm: Tony Toews 71760,3552
To: Stuart M. Mulne 72227,742 (X)

Seven heavy interactive data entry and a programmer.  On a B10!?!?!  Those
salesmen must have attended the used car and computer sales emporium training
seminars.  They must also have ingested too much of their favorite mind
altering substances!

#: 26958 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    04-May-90  22:17:36
Sb: #26362-AS/400 Capacity
Fm: Stephen Kent 72207,1013
To: Ken Werner 76657,3373

Ken, you mentioned the C10 as a single programmer development machine peered
to a larger machine.  I have a client with a S/38 and I've suggested using an
AS/400 as a development machine for the programmers.

IBM liked the idea but couldn't present a very elegant way to accomplish it.
In particular, they said that there were incompatibilities which would in
effect make the two machines independent except for the ability to quickly
move programs from the 400 to the 38 where they'd have to be recompiled prior
to use.

What we wanted to do was put source libraries on the 400 but keep data and
object libs on the S/38.  The objective was to offload the development work
and compiles.  The programmers would get some advantages from improved tools
and the speed of a dedicated machine although they'd still be writing for the
38.

Do you (or anyone else) have any thoughts or comments?

Stephen

#: 26959 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    04-May-90  22:17:40
Sb: #26856-AS/400 Capacity
Fm: Stephen Kent 72207,1013
To: Gene Sutton 73077,1132

Gene, I've been out of touch for a couple of weeks and missed the beginning of
this thread.  What application are you going to put on the 400?

We do a lot of small systems on PC LANs.  Frankly, they frequently do a much
better job than a comparable small 400.  The real question in my mind is
exactly what the client wants and needs to do.  There are certainly times when
I'd love to have the 400's integrated database on a PC.  Many other times I'd
love to have PC software on a 400.

We have a real problem finding an appropriate and justifiable home for the
little 400's.  I'd be curious to see what others are doing.

#: 27110 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    05-May-90  22:23:49
Sb: #26958-AS/400 Capacity
Fm: Tony Toews 71760,3552
To: Stephen Kent 72207,1013

Sorry to butt in but specifically what incompatibilities?  Sure you'd have to
recompile but standard CL and RPG will still be the same at the source level.
(I am going to assume Cobol will be the same but I've never worked with it on
the S/38 or AS/400.  And when I did I hated it.  {Oh no, duck! The Cobol world
is going to strenously disagree with me!})  Some of the CL commands would be
different but you can work in the S/38 environment so that wouldn't be a
problem.  Many of the differences are operational, like WRKACTJOB instead of
DSPACTJOB but again if you work in the S/38 environment that still shouldn't
pose a problem.

I agree about the improved tools.  I feel that the program development manager
makes a programmer about 30% more productive.

#: 27122 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    05-May-90  23:40:58
Sb: #26958-#AS/400 Capacity
Fm: TERRY TRAVER 72047,25
To: Stephen Kent 72207,1013

Stephen,

The little (B10) AS/400 as a programming platform for a System/38 product is
exactly what I'm using mine for.  I compile and test on the /400, then move
the source to the /38 and recompile there.  There are a few situations where I
have two versions of a single program (one for the /38 and one for the

Incidently, I've been doing this for some time, and the System/38 version of
PC Support allows transmission of source members over an SDLC dial-up line
with no problem, but a 5,000 line program takes about 30 minutes at 4800 bps.
With release 2.0's SDLC/APPC hookup to another AS/400, the same program
transmits in 6 or 7 minutes!  The first time I tried it, I thought that it had
ABENDED...

Terry

#: 27131 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    06-May-90  01:04:19
Sb: #26856-AS/400 Capacity
Fm: Stuart M. Mulne 72227,742
To: Gene Sutton 73077,1132 (X)

Gene:

Sure smells fishy to me <grin>.

The real crazy thing is that I've been running this setup on our S/34 for
about 11 years, and it works OK as long as I don't get crazy using the
compiler.  (WHY does the RPG compiler eat the system so badly?)

Stu<and the S/34 is 128K!>.

#: 27132 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    06-May-90  01:04:26
Sb: #26858-AS/400 Capacity
Fm: Stuart M. Mulne 72227,742
To: TERRY TRAVER 72047,25 (X)

Terry:

That's what I've been trying to tell everybody, but the head bean counter is
in love with the dollar signs involved.

I want a 30, but would settle for a 20....

One of the problems our S/34 has is response time - it's just painfully slow
to anybody who's seen a PC do anything more complex than DIR A:, and I've
got the feeling that response time won't improve much.  Worse, it's starting
to look like response time will be highly variable - which confuses users
even more.

Stu.

#: 27133 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    06-May-90  01:04:31
Sb: #26955-AS/400 Capacity
Fm: Stuart M. Mulne 72227,742
To: Tony Toews 71760,3552

Tony:

Obviously you've met the guys <grin>.

(Wonder how it'd do with S/36 emulation?  I've got a LOT of working S/34
code to get rid of....)

Stu.

#: 27160 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    06-May-90  11:18:42
Sb: #26959-AS/400 Capacity
Fm: Gene Sutton 73077,1132
To: Stephen Kent 72207,1013

Stephen,

What I'm doing is looking at a proposal from an OEM to use their existing
software on an AS/400 to manage various town government functions.

I don't know AS/400's so I asked here about the horsepower of a model C10.

I was _very_ pleased to get 3 consistant informed responses.

The AS/400's 'integrated database' was probably helpful in developing the
application code but I don't see anything in the application that really
mandates a powerful database or an AS/400.

One other OEM did propose a network of PC's.   Very attractive to me from
'cost-per-unit-of-power' and 'future expandability' perspectives but suffers
from lack of experience in our state (Ma.).

Gene

#: 27164 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    06-May-90  11:57:54
Sb: #27122-#AS/400 Capacity
Fm: Paul Watson 76056,1751
To: TERRY TRAVER 72047,25 (X)

Is SDLC the only way to hook up midrange machines?  Couldn't something be done
with those Token Ring connects?

#: 27190 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    06-May-90  15:44:18
Sb: #27164-AS/400 Capacity
Fm: TERRY TRAVER 72047,25
To: Paul Watson 76056,1751

Paul,

I'm sure that there are many ways to hook-up these machines.  I'm not an
expert in this area -- I only go as far as making it work for me...

Terry

#: 27256 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    07-May-90  00:18:31
Sb: #27164-AS/400 Capacity
Fm: Patrick Townsend 73040,2224
To: Paul Watson 76056,1751

Hi Terry,

No, the System/38 does not have a Toke Ring interface (except as provided by a
third party).

But, if the two machines are sitting next to each other, a good modem
eliminator can run at fairly good speeds. Much faster than 4800 bps. I've also
seen very fast transfer rates achieved by using a PC connected to both
machines in 5250 emulation mode.

Patrick

#: 27257 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    07-May-90  00:21:40
Sb: #27133-AS/400 Capacity
Fm: Tony Toews 71760,3552
To: Stuart M. Mulne 72227,742 (X)

The AS/400 handles the S/36 (or S/34) remarkably well in my opinion.  (Watch
me catch a lot of flak for that statement!)  If you use some of the more
exotic functions such as IF ACTIVE-xxx or a few other somewhat bizarre
commands you can have problems.  Functions such as ?F'A,file-name'? will take
extra processing time as the number of records or no longer retained in the
VTOC.  Look at your high usage programs and clean them up first.  Such
functions as building and deleting files should, at least, be changed to
ADDPFM and RMVPFM respectively.  But all of this should be documented by IBM
in some of their conversion manuals.

But be conservative in your performance estimates.  Get an additional four meg
of memory more than IBM saids you should.  Interestingly enough some batch
jobs execution time was cut to one half of what it used to be.

If your operators have only ever seen the S/34 then make *DARN* sure that they
get training on the AS/400.  From their viewpoint it's totally different.  The
last company I worked for had a lot of S/34's and S/36's which were replaced
by AS/400's (up here twenty is lots) so I created a mini sysem operators menu
which had the commonly used AS/400 commands such as WRKACTJOB, WRKOUTQ,
WRKJOBQ and right beside them I had the corresponding S/34 or S/36 command
such as D U, D P, D J.  I used the command line entry program in TAATOOL's as
a basis.  (Ie. I shamelessly copied code from it and added a menu structure).
As a hint I set it up so options 1-9 were to WRKOUTQ 1-9 respectively just to
save some operator time.

#: 27267 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    07-May-90  01:05:46
Sb: #27132-AS/400 Capacity
Fm: Tony Toews 71760,3552
To: Stuart M. Mulne 72227,742 (X)

> I want a 30, but would settle for a 20....

When looking at the relative performance of a B30 vs a B20 there is very
little difference.  The difference is price, and I mean PRICE and
expandibility for the future as it's a rack mount.  Are you thinking about a
C25, again keeping the future in mind?

#: 27268 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    07-May-90  01:05:51
Sb: #27164-AS/400 Capacity
Fm: Tony Toews 71760,3552
To: Paul Watson 76056,1751

Idea associates sell a solution where you put two twinax cards and some of
their software in a PC and the two IBM midrange CPU's.  I have not personally
worked with this solution.

#: 27483 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    08-May-90  00:08:32
Sb: #27267-AS/400 Capacity
Fm: Stuart M. Mulne 72227,742
To: Tony Toews 71760,3552

Tony:

Well, back when I started believing that I'd get an AS/400 before my
daughter got married (she's FOUR, so you can see how screwed up we are),
there was a bit of difference between the 20 and 30.  Lately, I'm not sure
that it's worth it.  I hate to say it, but I don't know anything about the
25.  The salespeople don't appear to be willing to quote anything but the
lowballs, and I've been so busy trying to make some PCs work that I've tried
to ignore the matter (makes my head ache, anyway).

Stu.

#: 27484 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    08-May-90  00:08:46
Sb: #27257-AS/400 Capacity
Fm: Stuart M. Mulne 72227,742
To: Tony Toews 71760,3552

Tony:

My operators have never seen anything but the S/34 (unless you count a
steadily growing number of PCs and our old S/3 Mod 8), so I expect they'll
be confused.  I appreciate (as I assume the rest of the gang will) your
suggestions on an operator's menu.  Great idea!  (Sneaky, too <grin>.)

IF ACTIVE always was a PITA to use - problem being that if I have six procs
that use whatever I'm trying to protect, as soon as I get all six set up to
cover each other's a**, some whacko in purchasing decides we need a seventh
proc....  ("Well, sort it by golf shoe size!")  You get the idea. I've gone
as far as setting up flag files and letting programs toss tokens around to
avoid this kind of stuff.  I _do_ use some "?F'A,filename" stuff - mostly to
see if a program actually did something useful - thus saving a blank sheet
of paper that a follow up program might otherwise create and the 30 seconds
or so the user gets to bite his/her nails while waiting for the job to end.
I suppose I could evoke some of these and not worry about the paper, but my
#1 operator is a neatness freak, _and_, my users and the slow S/34 sometimes
collide by not waiting anywhere long enough to let the EVOKEd proc do it's
thing before trying again - leading to the "you can't delete it now, dummy"
message, and the even more horrible "DISP OLD OR SHR GIVEN BUT FILE NOT ON
DISK" (otherwise known as "WHEREINTHEHECKDIDYOUSAYTHEFILEWASYOUIDIOT!").
All of which generate mutiple support calls....

I'm _sure_ about the extra memory thing - you'll remember the early B10
history on that one....

Stu.

#: 27658 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    08-May-90  20:47:58
Sb: #27483-AS/400 Capacity
Fm: Tony Toews 71760,3552
To: Stuart M. Mulne 72227,742

Stuart

FYI, the C25 is now the highend two-high-filing-cabinet size AS/400.  I
believe it's performance is slightly less than the B40 or B45 while the
performance of the B20 was slightly less than the B30.  The B30 was a lot more
expensive than the B20 which is why IBM couldn't justify it on a price
performance basis.  The only way they could sell it was if the customer KNEW
they were going go be expanding shortly but not so shortly as to not justify
going straight to a B40 or B50.  I don't know what the prices are, besides up
here in Canada I only know Canadian prices.

Tony

#: 27659 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    08-May-90  20:48:07
Sb: #27484-AS/400 Capacity
Fm: Tony Toews 71760,3552
To: Stuart M. Mulne 72227,742

Stuart, I may have been somewhat obscure with my reference to TAATOOL's.
Regarding the command line on the operators menu.   This is a source only
library supplied by IBM containing all kinds of neat nifty utility type of
programs.  For example in 1.2 it contained all kinds of programs for determing
when the user last changed their password and, at a security office specified
time limit, would prompt for a new one.  In this case these functions are now
part of OS/400 rel 2.  There are also sample configurations for all kinds of
leased, dial-up, X.25, Token Ring, APPC, Q&A support, etc, ad nauseum types of
lines, controllers and device descriptions.  Also programs to do date
validation, including leap years and centuries, julian date, and the
difference between two dates all in CL.  And there's even more!  (Am I
sounding like one of those knife commercials on the boob tube?  Sorry)  Once
you get to the AS/400 WELL worth investigating.

Oh, these are not supported or in any way shape or form warrentied by IBM. Of
course.  So if your loan calculations use the difference between two dates CL
program and you discover a significant revenue shortfall you can't blame IBM
for your termination.

#: 27714 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    09-May-90  04:42:21
Sb: #27658-AS/400 Capacity
Fm: Stuart M. Mulne 72227,742
To: Tony Toews 71760,3552

Tony:

I'll have to look at the 25 - might be a good compromise between the 20 and
30, if I can ever get anything off STOP here.  And, since it's in the same
"box", their might even be a fairly lightweight upgrade path if I get stuck
with the 20.  I plan on fighting the 10 <grin>.  (Wait till I tell them that
if we get a 10, I'm going to take it home for six months to set it up,
'cause there's no way I can work on it while anybody else is using it for
anything useful.  Ought to be an interesting meeting....)

(I can do outrageous things like that - I've been with the company for 28
years - not only do I know where the bodies are buried, I've got the
check-out sheets for the shovel....)

(Hm....  Does anybody know if IBM is discontinuing hardware support for the
S/34 in Dec. of 1990 or 1991 - I got a letter to that effect, but can't find
the fool thing.  Our head bean counter wants to switch to Sorbus - that
ought to finish the job <grin>.)

Stu<at least they can't say I didn't warn them>.

#: 27715 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    09-May-90  04:42:31
Sb: #27659-AS/400 Capacity
Fm: Stuart M. Mulne 72227,742
To: Tony Toews 71760,3552

Tony:

TAATOOL sounds very interesting - almost as much fun as POP on the S/34 &
S/36, but more like the COMMON library.  (I've got a copy - I should say a
magazine - of it around here somewhere - way too big to keep on the system
for more than five minutes at a time.  Come to think of it, the later S/34
libraries have one or two of my programs in them. One of mine in Mark
Fleming's S/34 "Resource" library - can't think of the official name - too.
Mark made me feel real good <grin> - I sent him a disket, a short article,
and 18 pages of assembler code.  He basically printed my name, a paragraph
of what it did, and a set of PATCH records to create the object code onto a
dummy member.  Oh well, I got paid....)

I definitely will look into that, assuming the AS/400 is still available by
the time we finally move on one.

Non-support from IBM doesn't worry me - especially with source code supplied
- we bought a couple of FDPs and a bunch of ACS code <grin>.  Support?  You
wanted support?  Hoo Hah....

Stu.

#: 27841 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    09-May-90  22:16:00
Sb: #27714-#AS/400 Capacity
Fm: Tony Toews 71760,3552
To: Stuart M. Mulne 72227,742 (X)

Stuart, who cares if IBM discontinuing hardware support for the S/34?  I'm
sure that there are a lot of other mtce companies who will still support them.
(After all it isn't like buying a used /34 for spare parts is very expensive!
<grin>)

28 years!?!?!  Wow!!! I humbly apologize for saying this but I was born only a
few years before you stared with your company.  How many weeks holidays do you
get?  10, 12, 14? Or should I ask how many months? <grin>

Actually the C25 is a good compromise to going to a B40 or so.  I think.
Better make darn sure you check IBM's much maligned RAMP-C performance sheets
before you totally take my word for it.  (I don't have the information here at
home.)

#: 27868 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    10-May-90  00:45:08
Sb: #27841-AS/400 Capacity
Fm: Stuart M. Mulne 72227,742
To: Tony Toews 71760,3552

Tony:

My only problem with IBM dropping support is the relative quality of the
non-IBM support. I've worked with the local Sorbus guys before, and they
scare me.  (We foolishly depend on the thing!)  Spare parts won't be a
problem - I've turned down at least two "come and get 'em" S/34s already,
and I know where two more are, although I think their owner wants to see
what a shotgun will do to a S/34 - he _hates_ IBM.  (This guy bought the
first one like some people bought PCjr's - nobody mentioned that you needed
SOFTWARE! He bought the second one when he needed the "full boat" disk
upgrade, and discovered that a second hand S/34 with the disks in it was
cheaper than adding the drives to his old one.)

Don't apologize for being young - we all were, once <grin>.  Seriously, and
this is a bit off the subject, but IMHO, the younger folks in this racket
have some advantages - like being able to work 36 hour days without needing
a week to get over it.  I'm supposed to get six weeks vacation, but I
average two.  I'm too cheap to spend the kind of money it takes to take the
whole six weeks! (Wife won't hear about staying around the house, either.)
Meantime, my #1 operator seems to be able to find me no matter where I go.
(Had a client find me in the coffee shop of the Anderson SC Holiday Inn one
morning - I hadn't even told the guy I was going to be out of town!)  Who
needs "satellite" pagers....

Stu.

#: 28685 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    16-May-90  00:23:26
Sb: #27715-AS/400 Capacity
Fm: Mel Beckman 75226,2257
To: Stuart M. Mulne 72227,742

Stu,
  The May issue of NEWS 3X/400 contains an indepth article (by Wayne Madden)
on IBM's tool library (QUSRTOOL/TAATOOL) for the AS/400 -- including
everything you need to "reconstitute it" from it's condensed form.  I don't
think IBM provides _any_ written documentation for the thing!  If you don't
subscribe, give me your Fax number and I'll fax you a copy of the article.
 -mel

#: 28888 S5/Technical-Big Sys
    17-May-90  02:19:49
Sb: #28685-AS/400 Capacity
Fm: Stuart M. Mulne 72227,742
To: Mel Beckman 75226,2257

Mel:

Thanks for the offer, and the info.  I'd be happy to let you fax me the
article, but I don't have an AS/400, so it really doesn't matter.

(I'm a subscribe, too - the article is probably here somewhere....  I keep
them for a year or two unless the wife gets upset about the pile.)

Stu.